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04-08-2007, 12:21 PM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 single engine small cat handling problems I have recently purchased a 2000 angler 19 center console cat with a single yamaha 150 and it seems to have a handling problem of sorts. it seems to me the trim needs to be excessivly raised to give the boat a propper ride attitude keeping the bow up to eleminat dive or wandering in anything but calm water.Is there a fix for this handling problem such as tabs or dolefin? the motor is also raised from the factory mabye 4 inches up off the transom. I have noticed some cavation i assume is from this. but what gives with this set up it just dosent seem right.....thanks for any help     Report

04-08-2007, 12:47 PM gsieber Joined on 05-04-2005 Breezy Point Marina, Chesapeake Bay Posts 161 Re: single engine small cat handling problems Sounds like you may have both engine mounting problem and a bad hull design. Did you sea trial the exact same boat before purchasing? Sure hope so. Seems like you obviously need to move the outboard down to a better mounting level. If you want the elevation for flats, get jack plates. Also, be cautious about balance. Every time the outboard is moved in any direction, the pivot point of the hull is moved. That may well be your problem. Jack plates can also give you some freedom to play with balance, but will inevitably move the balance backward. In your case, that could be a good thing. CMC seems to be the experts choice for jack plates on this and other forums. better see if the factory can give some support. If they don't help you, let us know here on the forum. We like to hear the good and the bad with all these new manufacturers. Good luck....... "Two hulls are better than one"    Report

04-08-2007, 1:18 PM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: single engine small cat handling problems nope didnt do a sea trial .. a woman going through a divorce was the seller and the deal was so good you would have bought it. i picked this thing up for 3000 bucks! the outboard alone is worth that! its identical to the boat listed here. (http://www.usedboats.com/powerboats/2000/19'-ft/angler/catamaran-center-console/catamaran-(power)-center-console/inboard/-/1018496.htm)  but theres not much avalible info on this boat...Ive found it was only availbe for one year 2000, so im gona say its probley the bad design you suggested. but as far as a fix moving the outboard aft  4-6 inches as jack plate would with the option to raise and lower the motor could likely elimante this handling?I even noticed in the add above theres a bracket listed on the boat. what are the usual effects on handling when a pivot point is moved in this way.     Report

04-08-2007, 9:03 PM gsieber Joined on 05-04-2005 Breezy Point Marina, Chesapeake Bay Posts 161 Re: single engine small cat handling problems Whew! That engine is already pretty far back there isn't it. Looks to me like jack plates would be risky. Distance has a huge effect on torque and you would be playing an expensive and time consuming game of trial and error. I have a couple other ideas. Next time you take the boat out, place all the gear, coolers, anchor, people, etc in the back of the boat and see if that changes the performance. You could even mark the water line on the hull when at empty balance, rear loaded, front loaded, etc. See what configuration optimizes performance. Fuel levels are going to play a huge part in this also. I think the other cat owners here will agree that weight distribution is important in at cat, but most are able to compensate adequately with engine trim. Hey, for $3000 you got a great boat no matter how to slice it. Maybe you can get a good deal on a trade in or sell it an get one of the more time tested hulls on the market. I hope you are able to get this fixed while the fishing is hot and the weather is nice. "Two hulls are better than one"    Report

04-08-2007, 11:25 PM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: single engine small cat handling problems After a little better stare at that add and pick i have here  I dont have the bracket shown in that add I posted before.I will definatly shift the load around and see what weight shift will do? But,I am having a problem finding info on the effect of a transom setback bracket. Theres got to be a reason this other guy put on that transom bracket! Aslo, you can see the height the motor is lifted off the transom I spoke of before. Now what do you think? Thanks tons for the help by the way...    Report

04-09-2007, 8:29 AM gsieber Joined on 05-04-2005 Breezy Point Marina, Chesapeake Bay Posts 161 Re: single engine small cat handling problems That certainly sheds more light on the situation. Maybe the guy with the one in the add had the same problem, hence the extra set back. How much water does that boat draw? I wonder if people are using them as flats boats and that is why they raise the motors? Since you now obviously have room for jack plates, I would call CMC and ask them about effects. I would also call the guy with the one in the add. There are some guys here on the forum that are more knowledgeable than I on this stuff also. You may want to send PM to Harry Brosofsky, The Beast, and Fowlscay. On the home page, click the number of users on the site currently 268. That will take you to the PM capability. "Two hulls are better than one"    Report

04-09-2007, 12:49 PM The BEAST Joined on 07-26-2005 Miami, Florida Posts 100 Re: single engine small cat handling problems igotworms, You got a helluva buy.  You also have a problem that may be inherent to the boat.  All the advice that gseiber gave you regarding load set up is great.  I have a problems with some of the other remedies, ie lowering motor, adding a jack plate etc. This is my OPINION on your situation: First off, cat hulls are notorious for needing higher motor trim when running.  On most all cats, excluding displacement hulls, bow trim is very necessary to give a good ride while curtailing bow steer.  The single motor cat, if you notice, is only shown in a very few of the smaller model boats.  This requires less building effort and with only 1 motor it decreases the buying costs thus making it more affordable and appealing to the budget minded consumer.  Most every cat design requires 2 motors with each motor running on the centerline (keel) of each hull.  By only having one motor with only one trim it is harder to lift the bow because the torque/thrust is not directed on the keel lines, requiring more travel on the trim to give the desired effect.  This is a completely different scenario from a pocket drive V-hull which allows a portion of water to rise in a small channel to a higher mounted motor.   A single engine catamaran setup has the motor  mounted directly in the tunnel wash.  This turbulent, aerated, water is designed to increase hull lift but on your boat will also increase prop cavitation.  Prop cavitaiton in turn decreases efficiency of forward motion and trim ability .  With a center mounted motor, you also have no transom to slipstream water away from the lower unit.  This increases water friction, or drag.  In my opinion, lowering the motor will increase drag friction drastically and doubtfully be the answer.  Raising the motor would only increase the cavitation problems and most likely increase the trim effort needed.  To add a CMC jack plate could possibly allow more fine tuning but would require more adjustment and effort on your part with little gain, in my estimation.  This is the main reason why Harry and I have not installed CMC jackers on our boats.  We are not convinced that significant increase would be attained to justify cost and driving effort. All this said, I am NOT insinuating that your boat can't be tweaked and perform somewhat better.  Getting a dramatic performance increase is just not in the nature of your single motor catamaran design.  For $3000 I would run the hell out of it exactly as is!!  I know this is not the advice you wanted to hear. Capt. Jim The BEAST 2007 WorldCat 330 TE / 300 Suzuki's    Report

04-09-2007, 2:11 PM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: single engine small cat handling problems I really want to thank you guys for the help before hand and even with these problems im not at all upset with the boat! I rode around this morning with the boat totally empty with 5 gallons of fuel and then filled it up with its full 50 gallons and noticed no diferance in the ride with the fuel and the waterline hardely moved it was barley noticable.   So now if the standard cmc jack plate would give me little or no gains,what if i used the cmc 10" inch set back manual jack plate or a bracket placeing the motor further aft 10"-18" inches using the set back more than the lift of lowering function. These brackets are between 300-600 bucks so my potential loss is not too great. I have read about setback brackets and the purpose is to place the foot in the cleaner less turbulant water. Is this a truth on a center mounted motor in the tunnel wash of a cat?or does this only apply to a monohull. Thus set back would also increase bow lift in static trim from the weight moved aft and making trim more vertical instead of up making prop thrust more inline with the foward motion of the boat. So all in all this sounds like it would make a improvment in my handling problems.So what is your opnion of set back brackets. But I am no engineer or a longtime cat owner such as yourselves so i greatly value yall's input and time. O i did call the guy in the add his number was disconnected and the email returned.                                    Thanks in advace and a lot!    Report

04-09-2007, 3:30 PM gsieber Joined on 05-04-2005 Breezy Point Marina, Chesapeake Bay Posts 161 Re: single engine small cat handling problems igotworms, Too bad the guy with the ad is gone. I hope the boat isn't the cause ;) Jim makes a good point about the single engine and the hull wash. That situation may well render all efforts useless. However, if you have the time and resources and like tinkering, then what the hell. I love working on stuff like this, so I would be all over it if I has the time. I think your research on jack plates is pretty accurate with the addition that some people use them for running shallow. I have been talking about getting them for a couple years, because I love to fish shallow water, but never seem to pull the trigger on getting them. If you aren't traveling great distances and not in a lot of rough water, the advice to just run the hell out of it is probably the best. If you are like me though, you won't be able to do that. Regarding the 10" set back, I don't know what to tell you on that other than it is a huge leap and may require new cabling. Call CMC and see what they say. When you call them, please give our site a plug so they know they are getting some attention from our members. BTW, you gotta tell us how you got the handle "igotworms". Please tell me it is a fishing reference :) Best, Greg "Two hulls are better than one"    Report

04-11-2007, 1:00 PM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 ok what do you think of this? Ok here's my plan what ya think?  SO, I am ordering a stainless marine single engine outboard bracket called the mini 12'' for its 12'' setback.Coupled to that wil be a 5.5'' or 6'' manual jack plate. So I get 17.5'' to 18'' of set back and 5'' of vertical adjustment. With my problems stated before heres what i think this set up will do. One pivot point of the boat is moved changing static trim while underway and stationary helping to raise the bow. I dont know crap about hydro dynamics but im going to assume 18''s of set back is going to get my lower unit in less turbulent water than the tunnel wash its in now.And,with this change in balance might be able to align the thrust more to the foward movment of the boat. The jack plate will give me something to play with as far as a little performance and finding the correct height the motor should be at after set back is changed....all for around $750 in parts as i will install it all.What ya think?    Report

04-11-2007, 2:07 PM The BEAST Joined on 07-26-2005 Miami, Florida Posts 100 Re: ok what do you think of this? igotworms, When reading about the benefits of a setback remember that they are defining this and realized on a V-hull.  The setback or bracket was originally designed on V-hulls to allow closing in the transoms of offshore boats.  The V-hull has different angles of attack by the water entering the prop area thus moving the motor rearward lessens this providing, "cleaner" water.  You are dealing with tunnel wash not water slipstreaming off the hull.  My tunnel wash extends back 15-20' or more when up and running.  There is no clean water. I think you are asking for major complications setting your motor back 18".  Not just the extra cable, steering, lengths that might be involved.  Have you even considered the simple fact that the water deflection in between that setback could very well have you motor running under a constant salt water barage.  This is a specific problem of this type of setup.  Major mechanical problems could and most likely will arise from this.  If you look closely at todays boats, they have integrated transoms resulting in the motor being mounted on the hull transom within inches of the keel line, once again.  Most of the setback brackets and jack plates are used on high speed boats, including bass boats and some flats boats.  You very rarely see any bay or offshore boat with this installation.  Why? I will not involve the idea of the torque/stress you would be putting on this setup.  That is another "can of worms" (pun intended). Hey, its your wallet.       Capt. Jim The BEAST 2007 WorldCat 330 TE / 300 Suzuki's    Report

04-11-2007, 9:30 PM gsieber Joined on 05-04-2005 Breezy Point Marina, Chesapeake Bay Posts 161 Re: ok what do you think of this? igotworms, This approach scares me also. I am particularly concerned with the stress this will place on your transom and on the mounting bolts. You are venturing into uncharted territory. You are adding a lot of setback, joining dissimilar metals, and there is no math to estimate the consequences. I hate to see you lose your engine and part of your transom to Davy Jones' Locker. I think a slow and carefully planned approach is your best bet. Currently, you have a working boat with a handling problem and little risk to life, limb, or property. I am concerned you are taking risk to a level that will jeopardize all in an unpredictable manner. Since you already ordered the stuff, I suggest you install the jack plate first and give that a try. If things improve, but not enough, then remove the jack plate and install the set back and test that. Personally, I would not install both without breaking out my old engineering books and doing some calculations. Why take the risk? If you do end up with both installed, do some research on the combination of the dissimilar metals involved, including the bolts. You will want to check them regularly. Good luck, be careful, and keep us posted on your progress. "Two hulls are better than one"    Report

04-12-2007, 11:40 AM igotworms Joined on 04-08-2007 Posts 6 Re: ok what do you think of this? This is the input i was wanting from the begining ladies :)   I spoke with angler boats a bout slapping a 2stroke 150 on 18 inches of leverage to my transom.They told me every boat they designe was actully for a transom bracket bolt on or molded,excluding the boats with a notched transom ofcourse and not to excede 24''of set back. Also i did a little back yard testing on  the tunnel wash  with some towing. I own a Pursuit 2006 3480 so i towed with it ,let out 300ft of line to make sure  my big boats turbulance was mostly gone. Then i roughly measured the ride height of the cat under its own power. I made multiple tows at 17 knots,20 knots,and 25knots,also shifted some buddies around the cat to balance out a similar trim attitude to the boat under it own power.I know its not totally the same thing but im trying to figure the extent of turblance cause by tunnel wash so it is most likely close. Before all this I made a water pressure gauge out of a speedo that could be moved in and out of all the spots with clean water or turbulat airaited water.I found at speed below 17knots the tunnel was is solid water not very turbulant.I am only guessing here but i assume thats due to the low speed the pressure is remaining fairly low in the tunnel.At the higher speeds the tunnel wash gets more turbulant but not as bad as the 20+ feet the Beast said his was,but of course my cat is just a baby to his boat. But the worst  turbulance where i mesured  the lowest pressure was  where my motor sits now. Preasure steadly increased  every couple of .I went backto a max of 18'' and found pressure to be almost that of clean water exiting from the center of either hull...so it seems like this could be a likely fix..now i know my testing is mostly halfassed but thats what im here asking you guys! so do you suggest or think anything else anything at all ways i tested or should test let me have it.    Report

04-12-2007, 6:29 PM The BEAST Joined on 07-26-2005 Miami, Florida Posts 100 Re: ok what do you think of this? I believe that aerated water under pressure is still aerated water.  Aerated water causes prop slippage.  No tests just many years experience.  Harry and I spent many hours discussing setbacks and jack plates for our boats.  I spent well over an hour on the phone with CMC and discussed our application at length. The technicians did numerous calcualtions and decided the 10" setback/jack plate would only provide very minimal performance improvement at best.  Taking this into consideration with the various pitfalls attributed to this setup, we both came to the conclusion to abandon this thought. When the people selling the product tell me it isn't worth the time or expense, I listen. Why don't you call CMC and speak to one of their technicians,  Tell him your situation/boat setup, tell him your ideas, and see what advice he has to offer.  They won't just try to sell you the product.  If it will work they will tell you, if it won't they may save you some headaches. After looking at your pic more in depth it appears that your boat might not be a typical catamaran hull with a very pronounced tunnel.  Give CMC a call! Capt. Jim The BEAST 2007 WorldCat 330 TE / 300 Suzuki's    Report

04-26-2007, 8:47 PM honda cat Joined on 09-21-2005 chicago IL Posts 56 Re: ok what do you think of this? Attachment: 4427e0ef3878b6ae.jpg the stainless marine bracket is made for V hulls and with the set back also raises the motor. on a v hull for every 4" of set back the breacket raises the motor 1" got any pictures of the hull on a trailer? what speeds do you experience the problems be interested to see if the hull is sharp the lenth of the hulls the set back alone/ moving the weigh of the motor will greatly inprove trimability as long as you still have some relitivly clean air free water to put your prop in,  if the hull is sharp its full lenth i dont think there is any thing that will cure your problems but on the single motor small cats the set back certainly helps . slowing down lesens the efects of bow steering on some of the larger twin motor cats they lower HP ratings to avoid the ill efects of bow steering good luck you certainly got a great deal on the boat cant hurt to try to dial her in Its all about having FUN!    Report

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